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donkler:

umhomestuckwhat:

donkler:

the upd8 is almost certainly going to be on 8/8 so im wondering if i can get my third read in before it happens

8/8 cos why?

http://azazelsapocrypha.tumblr.com/post/90447904418/8-reasons-why-the-final-homestuck-upd8-will-happen-on

Found this good post on it, can’t link properly because mobile

Hmm. I can see the significance of the date, I’m just wondering if there’s enough time for it to be finished by then. In terms of how big I’m guessing this update is, how many other pies Hussie has his fingers in and how long it’s all going to take, I was expecting something more like 25th October. Although obviously I’d be happier with 8/8.

Source: donkler
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donkler:

the upd8 is almost certainly going to be on 8/8 so im wondering if i can get my third read in before it happens

8/8 cos why?

Source: donkler
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pillowcake:

I watched cascade again

Source: pillowcake
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Yeah this is definitely my favourite Paradox Space story so far.

Yeah this is definitely my favourite Paradox Space story so far.

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You know it’s a Sunday when you waste about an hour of your life and three tumblr posts on the time-space implications of Homestuck.

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Have you ever found yourself doing something and even as you’re doing it you think “this is such a waste of time, who even cares whether people get their alpha timeline versions of Dave confused with their alpha universe versions of Dave anyway?” but then somehow when you’ve done it, you feel like a massive weight has been lifted from your shoulders.

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This Alpha/Beta shit has me seriously confused now, so for my own sanity (because this kind of pedantic crap does bug me), let me sort out my thoughts. It may well be complete bullshit but I’m fairly sure this is how it is.

This is my understanding: in Homestuck, the word Alpha can be used in two contexts:

  • There are Alpha universes and Beta universes. The Beta universe is where the kids we meet in Acts 1 to 4 come from. The Alpha universe is the Post-Scratch universe from Act 6.
  • There is also an alpha timeline. Every universe has an alpha timeline, whether it’s an Alpha universe or a Beta universe. The alpha timeline is simply the one true timeline of that universe, i.e. not a doomed alternate timeline like the one where John flew off in that rocket pack to fight his denizen.
  • This is where it gets confusing. The Dave Strider who DIDN’T become Davesprite is the alpha Dave from the Beta universe. This means that (a) he is the Dave that was always supposed to be Dave in that universe and (b) nonetheless, his universe is the Beta universe.
  • Similarly with the trolls, the original trolls were the Beta trolls and the post-Scratch trolls (i.e. Karkat, Vriska et al) are the Alpha trolls. Beta always comes before Alpha.
  • All of this leads to confusing statements, such as Dave accusing John of messing with “not the alpha timeline but the ALPHA alpha timeline.” (i.e. the alpha timeline of the Alpha universe).

Not only do I want to go lie down now, I am also confused that I appear to be so interested in this.

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kforshort:

[snipped the previous posts]

((Oof, it sucks when that happens.))

Because the people I’ve changed the minds of are real life people who go out and affect the world. To start, changing their minds would first require them to acknowledge the impact media and the way we interact with media has on others and society. Already, it would make them more aware of how their individual actions can feed into the greater system.

Second, they would also learn about queer erasure and in the process learn about how differences in power are important things to take into consideration (aka why straight erasure is not a thing). 

So it’s more than just changing shipping attitudes.

I don’t see why it can’t be both abuse culture and queer erasure AND story interpretation. All these things go together all the time. Example, To Kill a Mockingbird is interpreted by some as a book against racism, but it is also interpreted by many Black people as a book lauding the White Savoir trope. 

It’s always worth the time and effort to analyze the media we consume. How do you think cultures, beliefs, ideas, and many other things are spread? It is incredibly vital that we examine this major source from which many people tend to draw their socialization from.

Again, this is the same thing with the DirkJane point. it’s not so much about DirkJake, as it is about what DirkJake represents; the downplay and romantization of abuse culture.

((Aah sorry, I did forget about that. Not that I have a problem with you blocking me, I just thought I’d suggest that if you were interested.))

"Because the people I’ve changed the minds of are real life people who go out and affect the world."

Can you give me an example of how someone’s behaviour might change in the real world, due to changing their mind about whether DirkJane is okay or not? What behaviour would they stop or amend doing as a result? Because as far as I can see, a person’s opinion on whether or not DirkJane is okay has nothing to do with their attitude to queer erasure and everything to do with their attitude to shipping. The consequences of shipping problematic stuff are not the same as the consequences of DOING problematic stuff.

"changing their minds would first require them to acknowledge the impact media and the way we interact with media has on others and society"

It’s true that the media as a whole has a dramatic impact on society. However, I think you’re overestimating the impact that a very small part of one fandom concerned with one aspect of one particular webcomic can have on society. And we have all sorts of opinions about media that DON’T reflect our social values - for example, I can enjoy the insanity of Vriska shoving Tavros off a cliff without condoning real-life people shoving people off cliffs. In other words, if your problem is queer erasure, why not use one of the many existing real-life examples to make that point, instead of relating it to something that doesn’t really matter? Isn’t the point a thousand times more effective that way?

And I would have to guess that most people who are regulars on tumblr are probably going to come across discussions on queer erasure at some point, regardless of whether or not they get involved in these discussions. For most people, it won’t be the first or last they hear of it, so these discussions aren’t really necessary from an “awareness” point of view. .

"I don’t see why it can’t be both abuse culture and queer erasure AND story interpretation."

Because if we disagree about what is actually going on in that story’s plot, there’s no point in sitting down and arguing over whether it qualifies as abuse or not.

"To Kill a Mockingbird" is a different thing. Why? Because we might differ over the over-arching theme there (is it anti-racist or is it a white saviour thing?) but fundamentally, the details of that plot are not up for discussion. So if we argue over the book, we can really argue about racism, because we both agree that the details of the plot are what they appear to be. We don’t get "arguments about what’s going on" confused with "arguments about themes."

With Homestuck, there is real plot ambiguity and it’s been put there on purpose by an author who is intent on making us WORK to understand what’s going on. So somebody could well make a legitimate case that “respective orientations” refers to gender or they could well make a case that it doesn’t. And unless Hussie ever puts in a line of dialogue where Dirk goes “yo, changed my mind, I’m happy with people calling me gay” then you’re never going to get the definitive answer, which means you can’t really start discussing themes of queer identity based on it.

"It is incredibly vital that we examine this major source from which many people tend to draw their socialization from."

If it can be related to real life values and behaviours, then yes. Sometimes it simply can’t be related to real life values and behaviours. Sometimes real life and fiction don’t have the same moral rules. And you still haven’t given me an example of a PRACTICAL thing someone can learn about abuse from DirkJake. I mean you say “it’s romanticization of abuse culture,” but actually the situations therein are so far removed from reality that, even if it qualifies as “abuse,” it doesn’t really qualify as “abuse as we see it in our culture.”

Source: umhomestuckwhat
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kforshort:

umhomestuckwhat:

kforshort:

umhomestuckwhat:

[Snip]

In fact, you already are blocked (only saw this after someone reblogged you). I blocked you a long time ago because I was quite tired and worn down by all the constant DirkJane arguments and you were a part of it. And I remember thinking it was quite sad that I had to block you (and a good few others) because a lot of your tumblr was good, but unfortunately I’ve had 18 months now of seeing people make that same argument again and again and again and frankly it’s tedious. (Please don’t misunderstand - it wasn’t your position in the argument that got you blocked, it was the fact you persisted in participating in it at all).

And yet, despite me blocking all those people, the arguments come up again regular as clockworth. Nothing ever gets resolved. Nobody ever moves on. The rest of the world continues on, oblivious to any of this.

Do you know how many people I’ve seen saying “actually, maybe you have a point, you’ve changed my mind” about these subjects? None at all. So yes, you have every right to keep talking over these same subjects again and again, even though there’s no definitive answer to any of these questions. But just as you have the right to keep doing it, I also have the right to say “stop doing it, it’s doing my fucking head in.” And if your counter-argument is “but people won’t listen,” then I could say very much the same thing to you.

((Idk, you’re probably not gonna see this, but whatever.))

I’ve seen a few people say I’ve or others like me have changed their minds. I was one of those same people, so…

In any case, I think it keep coming up because stuff like abuse apologism or queer erasure is considered the norm; most people don’t ever realize that it’s kinda messed up until you point it out to them. So even if I don’t change the mind of the person I’m talking to, at least other people who may be reading will be given another side to think about.

I totally understand why you might get tired of these posts and think it’s fine it you don’t want to see them anymore. (I do tend to tag my argue post with K talks tho, so you could have blocked the tag) Like, you can keep on making post like these, but they’re still going to be a waste of effort because these things are going to and need to happen anyway. =/

Second attempt to respond to this (hopefully without fucking up the formatting this time):

"I’ve seen a few people say I’ve or others like me have changed their minds. I was one of those same people,"

Okay, so I’ll concede that maybe not EVERYONE is too entrenched to change their minds. But I also think: so what? Let’s say you successfully convince everybody that DirkJane is queer erasure. All you’ve done is change their attitude to shipping - the impact on real life behaviour is likely to be non-existent. It’s not like DirkJane shippers were all going round denying the orientations of REAL LIFE people. So what’s the point in investing that energy in convincing them?

"In any case, I think it keep coming up because stuff like abuse apologism or queer erasure is considered the norm; most people don’t ever realize that it’s kinda messed up until you point it out to them."

In all honesty, I think it keeps coming up because the questions can’t be definitively settled and people can’t accept that these aren’t black-and-white issues. People get emotive and can’t see the wood for the trees. Generally when I see these arguments, I see people convinced that they are arguing about queer erasure or attitudes towards domestic abuse. Far more often, they’re just arguing over story interpretation, which really isn’t worth the time or effort.

It’s the same with the domestic abuse argument. Let’s say you convince EVERYBODY that Dirk and Jake’s relationship was abusive. So what? Nobody can use that knowledge for anything useful. Are we gonna do an awareness raising campaign that informs people to be careful about any friends from the future who send you a robot that might beat you up? Or are these scenarios so far removed from real life that there isn’t really any point in applying complex real-world concepts to them?

"(I do tend to tag my argue post with K talks tho, so you could have blocked the tag)"

Tumblr Savior doesn’t work for everyone - in fact, if you look at the comments page for the Firefox add-on, pretty much all the top comments are saying “this doesn’t work.” So blocking tags isn’t an option for a lot of people and people shouldn’t be operating on the assumption that anyone who might be triggered is probably blocking the relevant tags (not that I’m triggered, but the fact that some people ARE is another reason I don’t think discussion of these issues is worth the hassle).

Source: umhomestuckwhat
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kforshort:

umhomestuckwhat:

Friendly reminders regarding some issues that generally make the Dirk Strider tag a less pleasant place for us all to dwell in:

  • Arguing about whether shipping Dirk with girls is okay or not is a waste of time. PEOPLE ARE ENTRENCHED, YOU WON’T CHANGE ANYONE’S MIND.
  • Arguing about whether or not Dirk was abusive to Jake is a waste of time. PEOPLE ARE ENTRENCHED, YOU WON’T CHANGE ANYONE’S MIND.
  • Arguing about whether Dirk is technically gay or not is a waste of time. PEOPLE ARE ENTRENCHED, YOU WON’T CHANGE ANYONE’S MIND.
  • Arguing about whether or not Dirk is awesome is a waste of time. HE IS AWESOME, THERE IS NO FUCKING CASE HERE.

No.

No.

No.

Sorta, but probably not as much as you think.

Maybe you find them useless, but I certainly find all this in-depth discussion about character and their relation to real world issues very interesting and necessary.

If you don’t like it, just block the people involved. Stop wasting your time making these posts when it’s going to happen regardless of how many of these you make.

In fact, you already are blocked (only saw this after someone reblogged you). I blocked you a long time ago because I was quite tired and worn down by all the constant DirkJane arguments and you were a part of it. And I remember thinking it was quite sad that I had to block you (and a good few others) because a lot of your tumblr was good, but unfortunately I’ve had 18 months now of seeing people make that same argument again and again and again and frankly it’s tedious. (Please don’t misunderstand - it wasn’t your position in the argument that got you blocked, it was the fact you persisted in participating in it at all).

And yet, despite me blocking all those people, the arguments come up again regular as clockwork. Nothing ever gets resolved. Nobody ever moves on. The rest of the world continues on, oblivious to any of this. Nobody decides to remain in the closet purely because of DirkJane, nobody makes a decision about a relationship based on their understanding of DirkJake and nobody changes their mind about how they identify based on discussions of Dirk’s orientation.

Do you know how many people I’ve seen saying “actually, maybe you have a point, you’ve changed my mind” about these subjects? None at all. So yes, you have every right to keep talking over these same subjects again and again, even though there’s no definitive answer to any of these questions. But just as you have the right to keep doing it, I also have the right to say “stop doing it, it’s doing my fucking head in.” And if your counter-argument is “but people won’t listen,” then I could say very much the same thing to you.

Source: umhomestuckwhat